Display All-in EV never worsk for PT3??

[PJs Ronin]

/thread I yield.

[kraada]

In order to hopefully educate everybody on the methods and reasonings we use for it, the EV FAQ just got an update.

PJs, zubs, thank you both for jumping in and getting involved - hopefully the improved FAQ will keep others from being confused about what is going on in these situations in the future.

[PJs Ronin]

Kraada, WR. I retain the view that not calculating EQ in these situations is not the better of the options available. However, I've been around long enough to know that

We'd have to be spending significant amount of energy and resources to go in and change the calculations.

is longhand for "it ain't gonna happen".

I ask that the developers remember this. In a cash game, if Hero's stats on alls-in is diluted it makes little difference as he can reload and continue playing the same way. In a tourney, there's a damn good chance Hero is eliminated. There is thus greater importance to get this right for tourney players than for cash players, imo.

Thanks for your input. Not many other software companies would go to the trouble of addressing issues like you guys do.

[Parket]

This was an interesting discussion. It convinced me even more of the fact that EV Graphs are all but useless. *grin*

First, I saw some remarks here about EV calc helping you evaluate whether your decision (typically a call) was good or not. This is bullocks of course. It's not because the actual all-in situation is +EV for you, that you made the right decision. Suppose you're in the BB and the SB openshoves for 10BB effective. You call with 47o, and SB shows 45s. The EV will be positive, OMG, we made the right call ! Yeah right... Evaluating a particular decision is much more complicated than that and involves estimated hand ranges, etc... This is what tools like SNGWiz do and they actually iterate over the entire villain ranges to calculate the true EV. As this is already quite computationally intensive for one single hand, this is not something you can expect PT3 to do (even ignoring the fact that PT3 will not even know the villain ranges without you telling them).

So what I see EV calculations/graphs mostly/solely used for is to evaluate one's good/bad fortune. Poker forums are full of the 'OMG I'm running $1000 under EV this month' posts. For starters, these guys probably quietly ignore the 5 month period in which they ran $200 over EV. But moreover, all-in EV is just such a small fraction of the whole good/bad fortune spectrum that it is deceiving to measure your fortune based on that, just because it happens to be the only piece of fortune that is actually quantifiable. It's like deciding your next date purely on the girl's bra size because you can't measure how pretty her face is . There are so many other aspects to luck that they might easily compensate (or -admittedly- even worsen) your all-in misfortune. E.g. you might run under all-in EV but at the same time have been lucky enough that in 90% of your all-in clashes you were ahead of your opponents. Also, Dan Harrington has an excellent example in the intro of his Harrington On Holdem book illustrating how concealed the luck factor even might be.

Bottomline is that these EV Graphs are pretty much useless, even if they were able to incorporate your actual EV of every hand. This thread shows that even that is not possible...

Open to counter arguments

[kraada]

You won't get any counter arguments from me on that score - I agree with you. But they're very popular as you admit so it's something we do need to support and support well (or at least as well as can be supported due to the mathematical limitations).

[fockfish]

Hi all!

First of all I wanna mention that I am from Germany. Even though I read many books in English, there will be some faults. Plz try to get the sense of what I am writing, even if the grammar or the word is wrong!

I was reading this whole threat in a very attentive way. Comments like "Ev is not so important" and so on.
I cry! Nearly every day I cry cause the site I play at thinks fishes deserve more than they should get.

While the suckout at Sngs and Mtts isnt that big (Instead of 7000BB I made 6000BB- over 160.000 hands, this year), they think that I dont deserve to win at Pot Limit Omaha.
Both lines (the golden and the green one) diverge more and more... Its so beautiful to watch, cause it seems the divergence is just increasing like a linear function. Over nearly 50.000 hands (this year) I can say happily that I made 3000BB (instead of 6000)! LOOOOOL... Thats nothing- therefore I write this whole text? There will be guys who should be big winners and end up as big losers- and this guy is crying cuase he "only" gets half of what he should get?

STOP. Its not so simple! I didnt mention an important thing that makes my post to be at the perfect place.
Whenever I am ahead and bet pot, the probability that my opponents gets it is very very high. To be concrete- if the EV was calculated street by street, the suckout would be much more dramatic. The site (or better network) I play at has the tendency to attract very bad players. And guess what? The games are as juicy as they´ve been yeras ago. Nothing has changed. While one can sit at PS or Fullilt and the tables are very tight (at PLO), its not unusual that here four or five players go allin (in PLO).

I have to mention that I had a few courses in statistics (during my studies). Its nearly impossible to proof any riggedness at any site. Im not saying I get worse cards or fewer bombs... Also I hit my sets as often as I should... BUT... As soon as I am ahead, the suckout starts.

There is a new site called "Pokertableratings". U can buy handhistories there! The development is sooo fast. Couldnt imagine that thats possible.
Anyway, regarding the EV programs, the development is soooo slow!

Pokertracker is such a great program. I couldnt write any program. I am just able to keep my PC running ))
I am not critisicing anyone for being too slow or not doing enough- I can imagine how complicated this whole thing is. And the program is great! JUST, THE EV PART ISNT GREAT...

Years ago, there was a site called Poker ev- a very clever guy wrote a program that caculated holdem and omaha, street by street.
Also, there was a probability curve, where u could see the probability (in percent) of that outcome. Needless to mention, he included the problem of shortstackers- there was a button "press this if ur doing shortstacking", cause in many situations, hands cant be calculated, cause others have more money and some fold in later streets!

BOOOM! This site doesnt exist anymore. This program isnt available anymore. Woooow!
Wanna hear my conspiracy theorie? No, i guess not...

I am 99% sure that the site I play at helps
A) very bad players
B) new players
to win more than they should win.
Point, I am sure!

PLZ add a program where people like me can calculate the EV in a very exact way. Street by street.

Thanks in advance.

[fockfish]

I forgot to mention that two friends of mine got their accounts locked- just cause they wrote something similar to what I posted here!
The money, just gone. Wanna sue anyone in Gibraltar?
Thats ridiculous.

[kraada]

I firmly believe it is in the best interests of the sites to run a fair game and take their rake accordingly.

We are not associated with any sites and their ability to lock or not lock accounts is something that is completely independent of us.

[fockfish]

Therefore some players sue FT in the US...
Obviously, FT shouldnt have financial problems- woudnt be in the "best interests" of a poker site to have financial porblems!
I am sure you didnt lose money in the market crash 2008, otherwise (mabye) u wouldnt be as sure that everyone does everything in their "best interests"!!

Lets see what will happen. I hope for PT that no pokersite is rigged, otherwise the pokerboom would end very soon- and then both of us would be unhappy...