Changing the default positions

Questions and discussion about PokerTracker 4 for Windows

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Re: Changing the default positions

Postby mager » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:27 pm

OK iv'e been reading and messing with it for few hours and I think I understand the basics now. I have few question and example I want you to check:
1. I can see that the VPIP and PFR stat's has changed. From seeing how the new VPIP/PFR is calculate, it is surely more accurate. But, does that mean that every range I perceive based on VPIP/PFR number is now different? What I think of when I see 20 VPIP, is not 20 VPIP any more?
2. What does 2bet means? For example, what is the different between "3bet vs BTN open" and "3bet vs BTN 2bet"? Doesn't both mean blinds 3bet vs BTN ATS?
3. What is the different between "open opportunity" and "limp opportunity"? - does "limp opportunity" includes all "open opportunity"'s and opportunities to limp after limper(s) as well?
4. Does update cache being done automatically in PT4? I can see it, so I guess it is...

The example stat i'm giving here is "Limp first in(excluding SB position), Call preflop, call flop cbet and then fold to turn cbet". Fancy name for limp/call and then folding to double barrel(with some exceptions):
-I created two new columns:
cnt_p_limp_first_exSB_call_t_face_cbet:
sum( if[(cash_hand_player_detail.flg_p_open_opp AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_limp AND NOT cash_hand_player_statistics.position=9) AND lookup_actions_p.action='CC' AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_cbet_def_opp, 1, 0])

cnt_p_limp_first_exSB_call_t_face_cbet_def_action_fold:
sum( if[(cash_hand_player_detail.flg_p_open_opp AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_limp AND NOT cash_hand_player_statistics.position=9) AND lookup_actions_p.action='CC' AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_cbet_def_opp AND cash_hand_player_statistics.enum_t_cbet_action = 'F', 1, 0])

-and then created the stat:
LFI(exSB)/call & CvFCB & FvTCB:
(cnt_p_limp_first_exSB_call_t_face_cbet_def_action_fold / cnt_p_limp_first_exSB_call_t_face_cbet) * 100

Is that right?
Now, if I want to create the exact same stat but for SB limp ONLY, I create the same columns but only change the "AND NOT cash_hand_player_statistics.position=9" to "AND cash_hand_player_statistics.position=9". Right?
mager
 
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Re: Changing the default positions

Postby mager » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:28 pm

I have another small question:
I'm trying to build a "call flop c/r and bet next street" stat. Here are the two columns i'm trying to use:
cnt_f_XR_t_cbet_opp
sum(if[lookup_actions_f.action LIKE 'XR' AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_open_opp, 1,0])

cnt_f_XR_t_cbet
sum(if[lookup_actions_f.action LIKE 'XR' AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_open_opp AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_bet, 1, 0])

But it didn't work. From checking out an old PT3 stat, it used "cash_hand_player_detail.flg_t_open_opp" instead of "ash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_open_opp".
What is the different between the two and why isn't it working my why? it seem's logic...
mager
 
Posts: 180
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Re: Changing the default positions

Postby mager » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:24 pm

I'm having troubles creating another stat. I really hope you can help me with it as well. Hopefully, that will be it for now and I will be able to build what I want.

What i'm looking to build is "Call c/r Flop / Fold to Turn Bet". PT4 cnt_f_face_xr/cnt_f_face_xr_call is completely different then PT3 for some reason. It's complex one and I would love it if you could explain what things mean but if you don't have time - I will take it as it is without understanding.
I tried to mimic whats been done here with the PT3 stat/columns, and apply it to the PT4 columns:
https://www.pokertracker.com/forums/vie ... 18&t=34408
I duplicate the PT4 cnt_f_face_xr_call, added the bold part's he added(while changing "holdem_" to "cash_"), and it didn't work. Can you tell me why and how can I make it work?
(I also omitted the cbet part, but I don't think it is relevant - I tried with and without it)

Also, I don't understand why did he use "hand_player_detail.amt_t_bet_facing > 0 AND lookup_actions_t.action LIKE 'F'" instead of "hand_player_statistics.flg_t_bet_facing AND lookup_actions_t.action = 'F'". It should do the same thing but my line looks more logic. Can it work?

Thanks a lot - I know iv'e been asking a lot. As always, the customer support is amazing :)
mager
 
Posts: 180
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Re: Changing the default positions

Postby WhiteRider » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:09 am

1. The values will be slightly different, but unless you play games where there are a lot of all-in raises before your first action the values won't change much. In most "normal" hands you have an opportunity to VPIP and/or PFR - it tends to be very short-stacked games where the values are considerably different, such as turbo tournaments.

2. A 2 bet is the first raise.
"vs BTN open" means after the button opened the action and "vs BTN 2bet" means after the button made the first raise, but that could be after one or more players limped in.

3. Your assumption is correct. You can limp behind as well as open-limping.

4. Yes.

mager wrote:The example stat i'm giving here is "Limp first in(excluding SB position), Call preflop, call flop cbet and then fold to turn cbet". Fancy name for limp/call and then folding to double barrel(with some exceptions):

Yes, that all looks good. :)

mager wrote:I'm trying to build a "call flop c/r and bet next street" stat.

I think we need to clarify the situation you're looking at here as your description and the actions sequence you're checking for contradict each other.
I think you want to count times that a player bets the flop after their opponent checks, and is check/raised, then bets the flop when their opponent checks to them again - is that right?
In that case the player you're looking at didn't make the check/raise (so their actions aren't XR). Their actions in this case would be BC, but that doesn't specify that the raiser had previously checked. To do that we'd need to check the position of the bettor relative to the position of the player. Please clarify and we'll help you out with the details. (I'm afraid I need to go out very soon so I don't have time to get into this fully now).

mager wrote:I'm having troubles creating another stat. I really hope you can help me with it as well.

I'll have to come back to this one too, sorry. Please bear with me - we're a bit short-handed this weekend.
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Re: Changing the default positions

Postby mager » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:08 am

Thanks for you help. I will clarify what stats I talked about:

The first one:
Opponent check-raise flop(=check, I bet, he raises), I call the check-raise, and then he bets on the turn.
I think my stat build is correct(let me know if i'm wrong). I just need two clarifications:
1. Whats the different between "cash_hand_player_detail.flg_t_open_opp" and "cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_open_opp"? Why the first one worked and the second one didn't?
2. Whats the different between "lookup_actions_f.action LIKE 'XR'" and "lookup_actions_f.action = 'XR'"?

The second one:
(Kind of the opposite direction): I check-raise the flop, my opponent call, and then I bet on the turn and he fold.
My questions here are still valid. The columns PT4 cnt_f_face_xr/cnt_f_face_xr_call is completely different then PT3, I guess I should use the new one?
I could not understand how to build the second part of the stat(assuming I can copy-past the cnt_f_face_xr_call part) - i.e my opponent facing turn bet(cbet/open-bet or whatever it should be in this situation) and folding to it.

One more question I have:
What is the different between:
a. cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_face_raise AND lookup_actions_t.action = 'F'
b. cash_hand_player_statistics.enum_t_face_raise ='F'
and why isn't 'b' valid?

Thanks.
mager
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:04 pm

Re: Changing the default positions

Postby mager » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:12 pm

wrong. It it didn't work. I still need help... :)
mager
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:04 pm

Re: Changing the default positions

Postby WhiteRider » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:21 pm

mager wrote:The first one:
Opponent check-raise flop(=check, I bet, he raises), I call the check-raise, and then he bets on the turn.
I think my stat build is correct(let me know if i'm wrong). I just need two clarifications:
1. Whats the different between "cash_hand_player_detail.flg_t_open_opp" and "cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_open_opp"? Why the first one worked and the second one didn't?
2. Whats the different between "lookup_actions_f.action LIKE 'XR'" and "lookup_actions_f.action = 'XR'"?

OK, so you want to count the percentage of times your opponent bets the turn after making a check raise on the flop, right?
In that case your expressions look good.

1. They would be different table fields - cash_hand_player_detail.flg_t_open_opp exists but cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_open_opp doesn't. You can only use fields which are in the database, so you need to use the "detail" version here.
2. When you're checking an exact string LIKE and = are effectively the same. LIKE is only useful when searching for strings which could have different parts. This is called "pattern matching" and there is a section on using LIKE in this PT3 tutorial (search for LIKE) - this kind of thing works the same way in PT4.

mager wrote:The second one:
(Kind of the opposite direction): I check-raise the flop, my opponent call, and then I bet on the turn and he fold.
My questions here are still valid. The columns PT4 cnt_f_face_xr/cnt_f_face_xr_call is completely different then PT3, I guess I should use the new one?
I could not understand how to build the second part of the stat(assuming I can copy-past the cnt_f_face_xr_call part) - i.e my opponent facing turn bet(cbet/open-bet or whatever it should be in this situation) and folding to it.

So here you want to count how often your opponent folds the turn to a bet after betting the flop and calling a check/raise?

Yes - use the new expressions. We have more information about the position each action came from so we can build these stats accurately.
For example:
(substring(cash_hand_summary.str_aggressors_f from 2 for 1)::int
..which you see in the column cnt_f_face_xr_call is checking the second character of the string of flop aggressor positions. This string holds the positions of each aggressor on the flop, so the first character is the bettor, the second character is the 2-bettor, etc. This allow us to see whether the raise came from someone in or out of position against the player who made the bet.

To see how to check for facing a bet on the turn, and folding to it, have a look at how the Fold to T Bet stat is made. (You can often construct, or at least get started on, a stat using information from similar stats.)
That uses a column called cnt_t_bet_def_action_fold, which is defined like this:
sum(if[cash_hand_player_detail.amt_t_bet_facing > 0 AND (lookup_actions_t.action SIMILAR TO '(F|XF)%'), 1, 0])
i.e. The player faced a turn bet of more than zero (this field will be zero if they didn't face exactly a "bet" - a raise won't count here) and their actions were either fold or check/fold. (Again, see the tutorial I linked above for an explanation of how to use SIMILAR TO - that's an extension of LIKE.)

mager wrote:One more question I have:
What is the different between:
a. cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_face_raise AND lookup_actions_t.action = 'F'
b. cash_hand_player_statistics.enum_t_face_raise ='F'
and why isn't 'b' valid?

lookup_actions_t.action = 'F' is only true if the player's only turn action was to fold.
(a) will be true if the player didn't face a bet or check before folding to a raise.
(b) cash_hand_player_statistics.enum_t_face_raise doesn't exist - it isn't a valid database field. "enum" fields are usually those which store a reaction to a specific action/situation, so for example "cash_hand_player_statistics.enum_t_cbet_action" is the action taken when facing a cbet on the turn.

To make a general "fold when facing a turn raise" expression you'd need to use a pattern matching expression with LIKE and a wildcard, like this:

cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_face_raise AND lookup_actions_t.action LIKE '%F'

That says the player faced a raise, and made any sequence of actions ending with a fold.
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Re: Changing the default positions

Postby mager » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:10 pm

Thank you so much again.
I do actually look on how stats are built and build my own based on it. Though the search function(in PT4) has some glitches.

So, just to make sure I got it right, This is how the second stat would look like:
cnt_f_face_xr_call_t_face_cbet
sum(if[(...cnt_f_face_xr_call...) AND cash_hand_player_detail.amt_t_bet_facing > 0, 1, 0])

cnt_f_face_xr_call_t_face_cbet_fold
sum(if[(...cnt_f_face_xr_call...) AND cash_hand_player_detail.amt_t_bet_facing > 0 AND lookup_actions_t.action = 'F', 1, 0])

*(...cnt_f_face_xr_call...) means I copy-past "cnt_f_face_xr_call" and put it in brackets.

I think I understand most of what I need, I build a lot more stats so I will probably face few struggles along the way. If that will happen - I will open new thread on the appropriate forum.
mager
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:04 pm

Re: Changing the default positions

Postby mager » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:52 pm

Ahh sorry for asking so much but I just took a look at the way PT4 uses "3bet vs x open" and it's different. Do you mind to explain?
If it's complex to explain, just let me know how to build this stat for "3bet vs EP open" and "3bet vs MP open". The rest(vs SB, BTN, CO) is already exists.

you are the best :)
mager
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:04 pm

Re: Changing the default positions

Postby WhiteRider » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:19 am

mager wrote:So, just to make sure I got it right, This is how the second stat would look like:

Yes, that looks fine.

mager wrote:Ahh sorry for asking so much but I just took a look at the way PT4 uses "3bet vs x open" and it's different. Do you mind to explain?
If it's complex to explain, just let me know how to build this stat for "3bet vs EP open" and "3bet vs MP open". The rest(vs SB, BTN, CO) is already exists.

3Bet vs X Open uses a new mechanism in PT4.

The "aggressors" and "actors" strings are a series of numbers which represent the positions of each player to make an aggressive action (the "aggressors" string) or put money in (the "actors" string) in turn.

So let's say the hijack limps, the cutoff raises, the button 3bets, the BB calls, the hijack folds and the cutoff calls.

Preflop the aggressors string always starts with the BB position (8). On other streets it starts with the position of the player who made the bet. It then and records the position of each raiser.
So in this example the aggressors string would be "810". (BB posted, cutoff 2bet, button 3bet)

The actors string records the positions of players who put money in (voluntarily) in order, here it would be "21081". (hijack called, cutoff 2bet, button 3bet, big blind called, cutoff called)

So the expression:

cnt_p_3bet_vs_btn_open =
sum(if[cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_3bet and cash_hand_summary.str_aggressors_p LIKE '80%' and cash_hand_summary.str_actors_p LIKE '0%', 1, 0])

..says that the button made a 2bet (the 2nd character of the aggressors string is "0") and that the first player to put money in was the button (the 1st character of the actors string is "0").

--
For more on pattern matching (LIKE, SIMILAR TO, etc) in PostgreSQL see the PostgreSQL documentation.
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