WHY AM I MOVING TO HOLDEM MANAGER...

Questions and discussion about PokerTracker 4 for Windows

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WHY AM I MOVING TO HOLDEM MANAGER...

Postby sheshbeshon » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:59 pm

I have opened a ticket about problem with filtering hand action ALL-IN pre flop.
this filter is broken and get error and there fore can not be used.

In August 5'th I have sent in a ticket about it.

SO FAR NOTHING WAS DONE BY THIS TEAM NOR anything was written to me about it.
JUST TICKET WAITING FOR REPLY.

I HAVE PAID MONEY TO USE THIS SOFTWARE and I GET NO SUPPORT ON A BUG .

I WOULD LIKE MY MONEY BACK ....
YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING TO SUPPORT THIS SYSTEM . AND I SHOULD NOT WAIT 4 month for a FIX !
sheshbeshon
 
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Re: WHY AM I MOVING TO HOLDEM MANAGER...

Postby kraada » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:00 pm

That issue is in our system to fix and will be addressed by the development team in due course. It is in the appropriate queue and will be addressed.
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Re: WHY AM I MOVING TO HOLDEM MANAGER...

Postby sheshbeshon » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:16 pm

The issue is open for 3 month now.
This is not a small issue, because when I want to check my ALL-IN EV graph for hands I went all in with (key hands of tournament) I cant do that.
It may be in the appropriate queue etc...etc...

I am a customer which paid money for a functional software, right now this software is not functional.
You fail to understand the basics of customer service. It is not a feature request, it is the core functionality of your software.

If you cant patch a quick fix for that within 3 month from ticket opening , than I don't think you deserve my money or my attention.
To bad people do not support me on this thread...no body care about this ? am I the only one that uses this filter ?

Any how , this is no more about software functionality it is about paying for full software and getting 0.25% of it....
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Re: WHY AM I MOVING TO HOLDEM MANAGER...

Postby StevenM » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:33 pm

sheshbeshon - perhaps my explanation can help

sheshbeshon wrote:The issue is open for 3 month now.


If we were able to solve the issue faster, we certainly would have. 3 months is a long time, we agree, but it is a long time because we are still working on solving this issue. If a major issue takes us 3 months to fix, then chances are very high that its not an easy problem for us to solve - and in this case that wpould be true. This is a much more complicated task than you may assume, that is why it has taken so long - and it will likely continute to require more time.

This is not a small issue, because when I want to check my ALL-IN EV graph for hands I went all in with (key hands of tournament) I cant do that.


Respectfully... we do not not provide all-in EV, instead we provide All-In Equity Adjusted Winnings. Why? Because contrary to popular belief, a tracker cannot calculate EV. EV is a mathematical concept that has nothing to do with poker, but poker uses this concept to express the expectation you will earn with your fixed hand vs an opponents RANGE. Notice I said range, this is why a tracer cannot calculate EV. In theory a tracker could calculate EV, but this would only be possible if we could stop the game and have our users type in an estimated range for your opponent when the all-in took place, but that is of course impossible. Hand vs Hand is not EV, that is called Equity. Equity in a hand is measured in percentages, but we can take the total pot and multiply it by hand equity to determine our Equity Adjusted Winnings (only when all hands that have equity in the pot are known at showdown). Remember before when we were discussing expectation? This is a measurement of expectation, but it is not a measurement of luck, and it is not a measurement of running hot or cold .... it is only a measurement of running above or below expectation. Problem is you cannot ever meet expectation - expectation is only theoretical. For example lets take a scenario where the pot is $100 and you have 80% equity vs an opponent with no possible chnces to to. This means you have $80 expectation. Problem is you will never actually win $80! You will either win $100 or $0 - which means the times you run below expectation (20% of the time) are weighted very heavily to bring down your graph. That is why we do not advise using the graph for measuring expectation - instead you should use All-In Equity Adjusted Winnings on a hand by hand basis in reports; that is a FAR better method of measurement.

Now that I have explained this concept, lets clarify that you should be using the All-In Equity Adjusted report to review hands where all-in Equity can be measured. You don't need any filters to do this, which means the bug (which we acknowledge and will continue to work to fix) should not affect you in the situation you describe, if you are using our software as we advise and designed it to be used.


I am a customer which paid money for a functional software, right now this software is not functional.
You fail to understand the basics of customer service. It is not a feature request, it is the core functionality of your software.


This is the nature of software development. For example I found a bug in Photoshop 4 years ago that took 2 years to get fixed - and that fix did not come until the next paid version was released. I know this sounds like an excuse, but it is not intended to be.... We provide fixes and updates as a free service - a service we feel is the right thing to do to make sure our customer's needs are continually met; but this does not make the system flawless. Photoshop also provided that same free service, but my needed fix never came out until the next release that I had to pay for. In your case I doubt that would happen, but I am using this example to show that the continuing development and release of fixes is a seperate issue from the purchase of the software - its an important service, but it is not a service that is dictated by prior sales. Our most recent 4.12 update that came out last week had hundreds of fixes; but we have much more waiting to be addressed than we were able to include in that release. Eventually we hope to address everything of course, but realistically that may never be possible - some things just take a long time, and there is nothing that we can do to make these changes happen faster in some scenarios.

If you cant patch a quick fix for that within 3 month from ticket opening , than I don't think you deserve my money or my attention.


Fixes cannot be measured in time, they can only be measured in the labor required to make the fix possible. We have issues that our staff have been working to fix for over a year or longer, we wish this was not true but this is the reality of the software development field. For example just today Microsoft announced a patch for a bug that has plagued Windows since Windows 95 - and has affected every single version of Windows since Windows 95! In regards to "deserving your money", we should reiterate that PokerTracker is sold at a very low price, there is no monthly fees and you will never need to pay again to use PT4.

I hope this clarifies the answer for you. I promise we are continuing to work to find a solution for the all-in filter bug, but these things take time.

All my best...

- Steven McLoughlin

PS: I feel it is only fair to let you know that PT4 and HM2 are owned by the same parent company. There is no animosity between PT4 and HM2, and in fact our developers for both tools work together in some scenarios to solve some problems faster.
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