Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

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Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

Postby gambler247 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:41 am

Hi,

I have some questions on the general understanding of cbets, floating and probe bets resp. how that is shown in the stats.

The following is my understanding, where I would appreciate a short Y or N.

1. Villain checks the flop as the pre-flop aggressor. Hero checks behind. Villain bets the turn.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Villain turn cbet = true (delayed cbet)

2. Villain checks the flop as the pre-flop aggressor. Hero bets. Villain calls. Villains bets the turn.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Hero flop float = true
= Villain turn cbet = false, but villain turn donk = true

3. Hero checks on the flop to the pre-flop aggressor. Villain bets. Hero calls. Villain checks the turn. Hero checks behind. Villain checks the river. Hero bets.
= Villain flop cbet = true
= Hero river probe bet = true

4. Hero checks on the flop to the pre-flop aggressor. Villain checks behind. Hero bets the turn. Villain calls. Hero checks the river. Villain bets.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Hero turn bet = true (no donk bet)
= Villain river bet = true (no probe bet)
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Re: Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

Postby potamito » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:22 pm

gambler247 wrote:Hi,

Hi there

gambler247 wrote:I have some questions on the general understanding of cbets, floating and probe bets resp. how that is shown in the stats.

The following is my understanding, where I would appreciate a short Y or N.

I will do my best. But before answering with a simple Y or N i think is best we go over the PT4 definition for Cbets, Floating and Probe bets and perhaps it will clarify things for you...
These definitions are taken from the Statistics tab inside PT4...

For Cbets...
Image
This applies for Cbets on all streets. Cbet is as it reads a "continuation bet" made by a player that showed aggression on the previous street. Period!

For Float Bets...
Image

And for Probe Bets...
Image

Both Floats and Probes are pretty much the same actions. The only difference is that the active player is IN POSITION for one (Float) and OUT OF POSITION for the other (Probes).
But on both the stats accounts for the percentages of the time active player made a bet on any street after the aggressor from the previous street fails to do a continuation bet. Is that simple.
Now, into your questions.

gambler247 wrote:1. Villain checks the flop as the pre-flop aggressor. Hero checks behind. Villain bets the turn.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Villain turn cbet = true (delayed cbet)

No. If you put the condition for this on the turn as a "Cbet" it won´t count for villain checking the previous street.

gambler247 wrote:2. Villain checks the flop as the pre-flop aggressor. Hero bets. Villain calls. Villains bets the turn.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Hero flop float = true
= Villain turn cbet = false, but villain turn donk = true

For the condition "Hero flop float = true" to exist you´re assuming Hero has position over villain. Is this the case?

gambler247 wrote:3. Hero checks on the flop to the pre-flop aggressor. Villain bets. Hero calls. Villain checks the turn. Hero checks behind. Villain checks the river. Hero bets.
= Villain flop cbet = true
= Hero river probe bet = true

Nope, villain couldnt possibly have made a cbet because he wasnt the aggresor on the previous street. On this case villain made a probe bet.

gambler247 wrote:4. Hero checks on the flop to the pre-flop aggressor. Villain checks behind. Hero bets the turn. Villain calls. Hero checks the river. Villain bets.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Hero turn bet = true (no donk bet)
= Villain river bet = true (no probe bet)

This isn´t a probe but it is a float bet made by villain. It looks like he had possition on Hero so when hero checks river after showing aggression on the turn that bet he faced was a river float bet made by villain.

That´s my 2cc, cheers!
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Re: Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

Postby Flag_Hippo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:56 pm

potamito wrote:This applies for Cbets on all streets. Cbet is as it reads a "continuation bet" made by a player that showed aggression on the previous street. Period!

For the flop that's true but it's not correct for turn and river since they are not based on the last aggressor from the previous street. In PokerTracker 4 you can only CBet the turn if you CBet the flop and you can only CBet the river if you CBet both the flop & turn.
potamito wrote:Both Floats and Probes are pretty much the same actions. The only difference is that the active player is IN POSITION for one (Float) and OUT OF POSITION for the other (Probes).
But on both the stats accounts for the percentages of the time active player made a bet on any street after the aggressor from the previous street fails to do a continuation bet.

Float bets and probe bets can only be made against the player who didn't CBet - it doesn't apply to any aggressor from the previous street.
potamito wrote:
gambler247 wrote:1. Villain checks the flop as the pre-flop aggressor. Hero checks behind. Villain bets the turn.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Villain turn cbet = true (delayed cbet)

No. If you put the condition for this on the turn as a "Cbet" it won´t count for villain checking the previous street.

This will not count as a regular 'Turn CBet' however for this action there is a 'Delayed Turn CBet' custom statistic available in the Download Warehouse.
potamito wrote:
gambler247 wrote:2. Villain checks the flop as the pre-flop aggressor. Hero bets. Villain calls. Villains bets the turn.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Hero flop float = true
= Villain turn cbet = false, but villain turn donk = true

For the condition "Hero flop float = true" to exist you´re assuming Hero has position over villain. Is this the case?

Everything there is correct (a donk is an out of position bet into the aggressor from the prior street).
potamito wrote:
gambler247 wrote:3. Hero checks on the flop to the pre-flop aggressor. Villain bets. Hero calls. Villain checks the turn. Hero checks behind. Villain checks the river. Hero bets.
= Villain flop cbet = true
= Hero river probe bet = true

Nope, villain couldnt possibly have made a cbet because he wasnt the aggresor on the previous street. On this case villain made a probe bet.

This hand makes no sense - hero is check-calling on the flop (out of position) but then they are in position on turn and river.
potamito wrote:
gambler247 wrote:4. Hero checks on the flop to the pre-flop aggressor. Villain checks behind. Hero bets the turn. Villain calls. Hero checks the river. Villain bets.
= Villain flop cbet = false
= Hero turn bet = true (no donk bet)
= Villain river bet = true (no probe bet)

This isn't a probe but it is a float bet made by villain. It looks like he had possition on Hero so when hero checks river after showing aggression on the turn that bet he faced was a river float bet made by villain.

gambler247 - the turn bet by Hero is also a probe bet.

potamito - villains river bet is not a float bet. In PokerTracker 4 they can only be made against the preflop aggressor who didn't CBet on that street.
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Re: Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

Postby gambler247 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:14 pm

Thanks for clarification!

The only one where I am struggling is:

Flag_Hippo wrote:gambler247 - the turn bet by Hero is also a probe bet.

potamito - villains river bet is not a float bet. In PokerTracker 4 they can only be made against the preflop aggressor who didn't CBet on that street.


Why is this a probe bet? Villain missed to cbet and checked behind. So he could have had an action. It's even not a donk bet.
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Re: Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

Postby Flag_Hippo » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:05 am

Float bets and probe bets are both made after a missed CBet. The difference is that a float bet happens on the same street because the player has position vs the player who did not CBet but when a player is out of position then can only bet following a missed CBet on the next street and that's called a probe bet.
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Re: Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

Postby gambler247 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:30 am

Totally makes sense :P

Thanks very much!
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Re: Cbet, Donk, Float & Probe Bets

Postby potamito » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:22 pm

For the flop that's true but it's not correct for turn and river since they are not based on the last aggressor from the previous street. In PokerTracker 4 you can only CBet the turn if you CBet the flop and you can only CBet the river if you CBet both the flop & turn.

Makes perfect sense.
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